'Where’s the misogyny bill? That was promised and it’s still not there'

On the day Claire Baker, Michelle Thomson and Tess White gather in the Holyrood office, Baroness Bertin publishes her report on the regulation of the online pornography industry. Her major recommendation is to ban “degrading, violent, and misogynistic content” online, in much the same way as it is illegal in physical forms.

Bertin also calls for the depiction of strangulation in porn to be illegal; a new offence for the non-consensual making of intimate images, “whether real or deepfake”; and for resources to be directed towards school and community programmes for boys and young men to “counter misogynistic culture”.

It’s a well-timed report for this cross-party conversation on violence against women and girls. Towards the end of last year, Thomson, White and Baker joined forces to collectively press John Swinney at first minister’s questions on the issue of non-fatal strangulation. First Thomson, an SNP MSP, asked about criminalisation. Then White, a Conservative MSP, provided some stark facts and figures. And finally, Baker, a Labour MSP, raised the normalisation of such behaviour.

While it was not something they had coordinated in advance, having three women from three different political parties had the desired effect: a number of media outlets picked up on the exchange. “We got more bang for our buck,” says Thomson now.

I cannot see any reason why it would need to be party political

“There are certain issues that should and must transcend party politics,” she continues. “I think not only do the public like to see politicians working together, but it’s also a sensible approach if you’re focused on outcomes – and I would argue that every politician needs to be focused on outcomes, otherwise why are you a politician?

“Our job is to make people’s lives better by bringing pressure to bear. So, this to me absolutely should be one of cross-party interest. I cannot see any reason why it would need to be party political.”

The three of them don’t necessarily agree on exactly how to combat that issue of non-fatal strangulation. Thomson and White, while recognising the complexities, are persuaded criminalisation is the right approach, while Baker admits she hasn’t been “as supportive of an individual offence because I can’t see how it would be preventative”. But their tactics in the chamber did help raise the profile of the issue.

White says these cross-party efforts are all part of trying to “shift the dial” on violence against women more broadly and – admitting that she hasn’t had much opportunity to work across the aisle previously – says it has been “really refreshing” to work alongside MSPs like Baker and Thomson. “We’re just starting to build up momentum. It’s almost as though we’ve got a year to go, a year and a bit [until the next election], and we’ve just started to build up momentum and work on issues like this that we can work together on.”

She’s a little critical of the response given by the first minister to their questions, feeling that he was “dismissive” of the issue. But Thomson has had a bit more success behind the scenes – perhaps because she’s in the SNP – and had a meeting with justice secretary Angela Constance last month. “She was very supportive and interested in engaging further. We had a very fruitful meeting where we shared our views, and part of that was agreement that this is very complex,” Thomson says.

An element of that complexity is the culture within which these acts take place. “Criminality is only one part of the picture. There also has to be a cultural shift and we haven’t even begun to expand on that. I think much of this has been normalised by porn culture – and this is an issue that transcends boundaries and borders. This is a massive issue for women,” says Thomson.

Baker and White agree the influence of porn has become an increasing problem, and White has particular concerns about how easily children are able to access it. “The violence starts in the early stages of sex and there’s big discussions about mobile phones in schools, this access to pornography, and I know there’s some work being done in Westminster in terms of looking at having a very strict age limit.”

Josh MacAlister MP – who incidentally worked with Baker while at Edinburgh University – has introduced the Protection of Children (Digital Safety and Data Protection) Bill which seeks to raise the age of ‘internet adulthood’ from 13 to 16, meaning under-16s would need parental consent to use certain apps. Baker is supportive of this due to concerns that extreme and explicit content is creating the impression among young people that it’s a “normalised practice in relationships”.

You think the challenges are so big, how do we address this?

She believes that public health messaging could help combat the problem, for example on the risks associated with non-fatal strangulation. “Do we need to send public health messages around the risks of it, the risks of losing consciousness, risk of losing brain cells, that even slight pressure can cause long-term damage? I think those messages need to be stronger.”

It’s an acknowledgement that some people will take risky behaviours regardless of whether it’s a crime or not. And while Baker says in her view such activity “shouldn’t be part of people’s relationships… it will happen between consenting adults”.

She continues: “We have to work to challenge it. And I think a lot of that is around education, working with young people, have an open discussion. You’re trying to push back against the kind of culture that Michelle has talked about, and it is difficult. I think we need that investment into schools and youth groups, and to have open conversations with young people about relationships.”

White agrees it is important to target young people in particular, which could include measures to restrict access to porn or ban phones in schools. “We’ve got to get through to young girls and boys to say this is not normal,” she says.

And Thomson highlights that the problem is not just about young women feeling pressured to do certain activities, but also about men’s expectations. Young men, she argues, are also “victims” of porn culture. “The issue I don’t think is just that young people are having their sexual awakening frankly framed by porn culture. It’s also that routinely in porn, often young girls are trafficked and then they’re systematically raped on a large scale. And that is – and I use this word with utter horror – consumed by young men.

“We know many women’s issues are systemic, but this arguably is more systemic than most because for many young men it’s their first experience, that that is what a sexual relationship is meant to be about.

“Going back to then thinking about all the strands that we’re following up through the Scottish Parliament, that is one of the reasons why I’m very aware that if I can help shift the dial a bit, that will be a good thing, but I’m under no illusion as to the scale of the challenge.”

Naturally part of the conversation policymakers must have is how to respond to issues which are global in nature.

It’s not the top priority, so there needs to be a sense of urgency

“It can sometimes become overwhelming,” says Baker. “You think the challenges are so big, how do we address this? You’re coming up against businesses looking to make money, so there’s financial interest, there’s criminality involved in terms of organised crime gangs, not just individual criminality, and then there’s what’s happening in culture… You can sometimes feel a bit hopeless because you just think it’s too big to deal with.

“But we do have to deal with it. And as a country, we have to be clear about what’s acceptable, how do we have open conversations, particularly with young people. It is a different generation and they’re living in a culture they’ve grown up in. And as adults, we are partly responsible for that culture. They’ve not created it themselves. So how do we support them and how do we empower young women to have conversations and to understand their role in the world? And how do we support young men to push back on the kind of pressures that have been put on them?”

While both the UK and Scottish governments are moving to respond to various challenges, all three MSPs are frustrated things are not moving fast enough.

On non-fatal strangulation, for example, Baker says she first raised the issue in 2019 and has “met with every justice secretary since” to little avail. “What I’ve got from government has been, ‘it’s under review, we’re looking at this, this review is coming up soon, it will be included’. There’s a lack of progress or a lack of direction. There’s meant to be future work coming, but it’s frustrating that it’s not coming sooner or it’s not clear what direction we’re headed in.”

Where’s the misogyny bill? We don’t have the bill

White agrees progress has been “too slow” and partly blames the machinery of government for this. “I’ve been in politics now for nearly four years. It’s just painfully slow, and you’ve got constituents who just go ‘what are you doing about it?’ and you go ‘well, the machinery takes a long time’.”

She is particularly aggrieved about the lack of movement on the planned misogyny bill. Baroness Helena Kennedy, as part of the Misogyny and Criminal Justice Working Group, recommended back in 2022 that three new offences should be created: stirring up hatred against women and girls; public misogynistic harassment; and issuing threats of rape, sexual assault or disfigurement of women and girls. Ministers began consulting on that law a year later in 2023 and the bill was expected to be introduced to parliament last summer. At the time of writing, no bill has yet been brought forward.

White says: “Where’s the misogyny bill? We don’t have the bill. You don’t judge people by their words, you judge people by what they do. That was promised and it’s still not there. The umbrella of all this is violence against women, the treatment of and the hatred towards women and girls, and this power imbalance, financial imbalances in power and control. That’s the root cause of it and we have to address that. I accept that, yes, we do need funding for counselling of women and girls who have been raped, but there needs to be much more done at the front end [on prevention].”

Baker emphasises the need to “keep pressing on and keep the profile of up” of all these issues. MSPs must, she says, “be raising concerns where we can identify there has to be action taken and recognise the situation that women are in across Scotland and the way they are treated by society.”

“That’s one thing the Scottish Parliament as an institution has meant for women in Scotland,” the Labour MSP goes on. “It has brought politics closer to people and these types of issues since the parliament was created.

“The first major initiative was to recognise domestic abuse and talk about it in Scotland. If we think back to ‘99, it was still something that happened behind closed doors. It wasn’t as recognised that it was an offence, that it wasn’t acceptable, and the parliament helped. It was the first thing they did. They helped to raise the status and the understanding of that as a crime against women, and not something that was in the private sphere – it did belong in the criminal and public sphere. The parliament does have a reputation on that and it’s up to us to keep that going and recognise it does provide us an avenue to deal with these issues.”

Thomson says: “I think it’s incumbent upon all of us, where we have an interest, to inform ourselves, to inform others, to persuade and to keep going at it.” But she does express concern that women’s issues are falling down the agenda. “The issues for women cross the whole gamut. I’ve got a daughter who’s now 28, and I’m appalled that at the age that I am, and the interest and support I’ve tried to give to women throughout all the various kind of career moves I’ve had, that her life and the way she’s required to live her life is worse than it was when I was 28.”

White agrees: “It feels that it is going backwards at all stages… It’s not the top priority, so there needs to be a sense of urgency.”

Baker, though, is a little more optimistic about where women stand now. “I wouldn’t say that it’s worse; it’s different,” she says. “I think people are more aware that we have a different set of challenges. The world has changed. It’s more open, it’s more globalised. The internet has changed things, and we’ve got different things to respond to.

“Don’t be too despondent about the next generation and their ability to deal with that and navigate this because a lot of them are having to navigate it right now. I think we have to have a confidence in the next generation, and we can support them and empower them to do that.”