Kate Forbes: I will defend the SNP as a broad church that has a place for everyone, including me

Kate Forbes was five months into her maternity leave as finance secretary after giving birth to baby Naomi and was sitting cross-legged on the floor of a Highland community hall singing nursery rhymes at a baby and toddler group when her mobile started “going mad”.

Forbes remembers thinking it must be some family emergency as she ran from the hall to her car so could find a quiet place to return calls without the chorus to Wheels on the Bus being heard in the background.

It was 15 February 2023. A date branded on the political psyche. Most of us can probably even remember where we were and what we were doing when Nicola Sturgeon made the shock announcement that she was standing down both as first minister of Scotland and as leader of the party that she had led for almost nine years.

At a hastily arranged press conference in Bute House she admitted that she had become a “polarising figure”, a “barrier to reasoned debate” and no longer had the energy to lead Scotland to independence.

Standing was not the first thing on my mind; Naomi was

The announcement followed the controversy over the gender reforms debacle which she had spearheaded and which had led to bitter and divided debate.

And although she denied that her leaving was in response to what she described as “short-term pressures”, the Isla Bryson expose drove a cart and horses through the concept of gender self-ID and just added to other immediate controversies piling down on the first minister, which included the Bute House Agreement with the Greens and the ongoing police investigation into her party’s finances.

Operation Branchform remains live and has seen Sturgeon’s husband, the former chief executive of the SNP, charged with embezzlement, and both she and the party’s then-treasurer, Colin Beattie, also a sitting MSP, arrested but later released without charge.

Her departure was to spark the first SNP leadership contest in 20 years. And for Kate Forbes, the new mum almost immediately tipped as being the frontrunner to be Sturgeon’s replacement, it would prove to be the catalyst for a lot of soul-searching about her own values and beliefs and how that plays into the public space, to which we will return. But initially her thoughts were all about her new baby.

“My husband was the first person I called to find out what was going on and then I replied to a number of those that had been frantically trying to get hold of me, one of whom was Ivan McKee [who became her campaign manager in the future leadership contest]. But standing was not the first thing on my mind; Naomi was.

“I know this maybe sounds irrelevant, but I can’t emphasise enough just how full of doubts I think every mother is returning to the workplace.

“I think people think of politicians as people who are constantly scheming, looking for the next big break, thinking about their next move, but I was seriously out of politics at that point, seriously out. I had only just started to think about planning going back into that world on a very phased, very simple basis.

I can’t quite believe I went for it with such a small baby

“So, to even contemplate going back in to face a leadership contest, to be the leader of your party, to run the country, was of a magnitude I’m not sure I can even quite articulate in words. So, when you ask me about doubts, I mean, the doubts could just as equally be applied to anybody going back to the workplace after having a baby – does that make sense? – but then on top of that, you’ve got doubts around the timing for you, for your family, for your baby, and you’ve got doubts around whether you are the right person to do it. You’ve then got doubts as to whether you’ve even got what it takes. I mean, I could probably fill your entire interview with the doubts I was feeling.

“And what’s interesting is that the last time people had, as it were, come looking for me during my maternity leave was during the passage of the gender recognition bill. At the time, it was just really simple for me that I was so consumed at home, that to get my head into that space, when she was only three months old, she was tiny, just wasn’t an option. So, even at five months, although it felt a little bit further ahead in the process, looking back, I can see how small she was, and I can’t quite believe I went for it [the leadership] with such a small baby.”

Given Forbes mentions the issue of the Gender Recognition Reform Bill so early in our interview, I ask her why she didn’t vote on what had become such a controversial topic when parliamentary procedures would have allowed it. Indeed Meghan Gallacher, the deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, who was also on maternity leave, made a virtue of coming back to vote.

“You know, not one person asked me about the gender reforms when I was off. None. I mean, I remember one lady asking me what I did. I sort of ‘ummed and ahhed’ and eventually said politics, and she said, ‘I couldn’t have told that you were a politician’.

“So it just wasn’t a thing occupying my thoughts and the only thing that really broke through was, of course, Isla Bryson. That was the first time I think it penetrated the consciousness of a group like that that I was with. These mothers had not tracked the story up to that point, and it was the first time I ever heard it being discussed in fringes of a mother and baby group.

Post pregnancy life were extremely difficult. I was not myself. I was in a very dark place

“And yes, I could have voted but I think for me there are two very important reasons that I didn’t come back to do that.

“One, I believe it was important not to come back prematurely because I think it sends a very bad signal to all other mothers on maternity leave that when something important happens, you have to come back. Now, how and who decides what’s important? I think maternity leave should be honored as much as possible. And I was the first cabinet secretary to be on maternity leave and a couple of months prior to that there had been strikes, there had been all sorts of really important things for the finance secretary, and I didn’t come back for them, and I strongly believe that if you’re off, you’ve got to be off.

“The other thing which I’ve spoken about before was that my first few months of post pregnancy life were extremely difficult. I was not myself. I was in a very dark place. I was just starting to recover in the December, and I just don’t think I could have come back to vote in terms of where I was at.

“And in terms of how I would have voted, well, I’ve already stated my position on that, that I was very uncomfortable with the self-ID part. And, you know, I think that that answer is still sound.”

Forbes as the poster girl for social conservativism was forged during the bruising SNP leadership contest in which she stood against Humza Yousaf and Ash Regan to succeed Sturgeon.

Despite the fact that her faith and membership of the Free Church of Scotland were well known previously and not been an issue, even though she had been in government, there was a storm of protest and accusations that she had derailed her own leadership bid when she admitted during a media interview that had she been an MSP back in 2014 (she wasn’t) when the Scottish Parliament legislated for equal marriage, she would have voted against it.

She later said that for her personally, abortion would never be an option and that, for her, having children outside of marriage is “wrong” according to her faith.

She said: “My position on these matters is that I will defend to the hilt everybody’s right in a pluralistic and tolerant society to live and to love free of harassment and fear.

“And in the same way, I hope that others can be afforded the rights of people of faith to practice fairly mainstream teaching. And that is the nuance that we need to capture on equal marriage.

“Equal marriage is a legal right, and as a servant of democracy, rather than a dictator, I absolutely respect and defend that democratic right.”

The fact that she also said that as first minister she would never seek to overturn existing laws did nothing to appease her critics and she faced a barrage of hostility with some commentators saying her religious beliefs should bar her from high office. The fact that her close rival in the contest was a practicing Muslim did not appear to afford him the same scrutiny.

I definitely had to work hard when I came back into Holyrood after maternity leave, to build bridges and to restore friendships

Her comments saw Scottish Government ministers Richard Lochhead, Tom Arthur and Clare Haughey immediately withdraw their support for her candidacy, as did health committee convener Gillian Martin who now sits alongside Forbes in Cabinet.

And while Nicola Sturgeon stressed that she would not be taking a side in the leadership election, she rather cryptically added: “What I will always do is be clear about my views and my values and my outlook on these things. And I think my views on these things accord with the views of my party – and I don’t see that changing.”

The then deputy first minister, John Swinney, whose endorsement was seen as pivotal in the contest, said he profoundly disagreed with Forbes despite his own “deeply religious faith”. He stopped short of calling for her to quit the race to succeed Sturgeon, but he publicly backed Yousaf and questioned whether Forbes’s views on gay marriage made her “appropriate” to be the next first minister.

In the end, Forbes was only very narrowly beaten by Yousaf for the leadership and she was then not part of his ministerial team and returned to the back benches. But as the last year played out, Yousaf himself was eventually forced to resign from the job as first minister or face a vote of no confidence which he looked set to lose.

I hate feeling like a coward. And so, I have done my level best to – in the moments that I wanted to hide – propel myself forward

Swinney took over in early May of this year and Forbes was invited back into the Cabinet, this time as both economy secretary and deputy first minister. I ask her how difficult that was, given Swinney had all but thrown her under the bus in the previous leadership contest and that there was pressure for her to stand against him.

She diplomatically says they had a number of “amicable” conversations prior to her appointment and all “was good”. She also said that while she was keen to take the economy brief, it was very much his choice to also make her DFM.

On the wider topic of sitting around a Cabinet table with minsters who had not been supportive of her during the previous leadership contest, she says she has worked hard to “build bridges”.

“I definitely had to work hard when I came back into Holyrood after maternity leave, to build bridges and to restore friendships. And I did that very intentionally. I was on the back benches and sitting in committees so that gives an opportunity to talk and you’re chatting to people in the coffee queue and so on. You know, I was really intentional in it all. I went along to social things and so on. I made the effort.

“There were some colleagues in particular who were noticeable in their efforts to reach out and I won’t single them out, but they were really impressive in their efforts to reach out and to visibly reach out, which made a real difference to me. And, may I say, that’s true from other parties as well.

“I’m not reducing that feeling that I had of wanting to hide away. But I hate feeling like a coward. And so, I have done my level best to – in the moments that I wanted to hide – propel myself forward and spoken to somebody or given the speech in the chamber, or whatever it is. And again, I’m being careful not just to present myself as the big bold version of me, but it has taken an effort over the last year and a half to, I think, restore some really good friendships that I now have back in the group. But I accept that not everybody wants to reciprocate, to have a friendship. And that is fine too.”

^{Photo credit: Alamy}

I ask her if she now regrets answering the question about equal marriage in the way that she did, given the strife it caused?

“I don’t regret being honest, and therefore giving the voters the power to make an informed decision. And then as a democrat, I honour that decision. I could not have won as a fraud. And in the end, it came within a matter of percentage points.

“Coming back into government this time felt very different. I was not coming from a standing start. In fact, at the time I was just amazed how much more comfortable and confident I felt compared with the year before, which again, left me quite astonished by what I had been willing to do the previous year. I felt like I was, you know, in and amongst it in the parliament, understanding the issues, just even being able to articulate myself as you need to as a politician in front of a camera, was a different experience. So, I felt worlds away.

“I chose not to stand against John very, very consciously. I don’t feel like it was anybody else’s choice. I felt that it was my choice not to stand and, in that moment, to support John and to be really clear about what I could contribute. And, you know, it was a two-way conversation. And that obviously resulted in the reshuffle and the responsibilities I now have.

He’s the only person that I think could unite different parts of the party

“I think by the point that we were discussing next steps when Humza Yousaf stood down, John and I had already had a number of conversations over the previous year. And so, we were in a really amicable, warm place already.

“I think he’s the only person that can take the party forward. He’s the person with the most universal respect within the party. He’s the only person that I think could unite different parts of the party. And I think you’ve seen from the last eight weeks, even in a difficult election, that there has been a real solid base behind him.

“I think it needs somebody after 17 years who’s got the gravitas, who’s got the credibility, and who pretty much knows everybody in the party. The last year has been, by all accounts, an extraordinarily difficult and challenging year for the SNP. And so it required somebody with a unique skillset to lead it, which only John had.”

Would she stand if he stood down tomorrow?

“I’m not sure. I’m really not sure. And I emphasise that not as a means of not giving you a straight answer, I mean that in a really honest way of saying, I just don’t know.”

Forbes is not someone who gives up easily. She has a steely determination, a focus and a desire to succeed. There are some who may believe that it was the bruising leadership contest and the reaction that she received from it that has changed her perspective, but actually the change comes not from the brickbats that were thrown at her, which she says she “cares less about than people might think”, but from childbirth and the post-natal depression she experienced.

The whole experience has made me such a different person. Humbler, maybe

“I’m somebody that has always tried to achieve. I’ve always been somebody that’s measured my performance. And I guess having a baby knocked both of those things. I wasn’t in control, and I could not work my way out of how I was feeling. It came as a huge shock to me.

“I have always thought if you just pull your socks up, in fact, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you’ll do it, you’ll get through anything. But you certainly can’t plan for how birth will go. And basically, halfway through the birthing process, it was like, wow, this is actually getting the better of me. And I am somebody that validates my performance in everything. So, my pregnancy, my giving birth, was fast becoming a big fat ‘F’ for fail and I couldn’t control that. That did completely knock me.

“The whole experience has made me such a different person. Humbler, maybe. More forgiving of others. I think that for people who do judge themselves on their performance, they can be quite harsh critics of others, and they struggle for empathy, and having been knocked down, I feel like I’ve got so much more sympathy and empathy.

In that vulnerability, in that place, I know what I needed, and it was the help of other women

“And I am also amazed and astonished at how little support, help, research, understanding there is for a women’s health, for pregnancy issues. There isn’t a human being in the land that hasn’t arrived as a result of a pregnancy and yet, considering it’s a universal experience in terms of everybody’s creation, it’s quite remarkable how little people understand it.

“That’s the most vulnerable I’ve ever felt as a woman. And you look to other women in that room for your help and support. And I think it’s a good example of the need for a single-sex place, which in the moment I would not have thought through the political implications of what I was asking for, but I tell you that in that vulnerability, in that place, I know what I needed, and it was the help of other women.”

Given that scenario and the simplicity of where that thought comes from in the context of the toxicity of the arguments about single-sex services, why does she think politicians have got into such a mess talking about sex and gender?

“That is a very good question. And I think it’s an answer I’m going to have to think through. I think we live in a soundbite generation, we live on social media, where it boils down complexity into meaningless phrases that, when you stop and think about, actually don’t mean anything. And I think instinctively there’s lot of politicians that know the right answer but have bought into phrases.

^{Photo credit: Alamy}

“The other thing is that we live in a very fearful culture. And I think, again, there’s a lot of politicians that know what they instinctively feel, but they are very scared of expressing it.

“And, you know, in my leadership contest, there was a lot of people that obviously distanced themselves quite quickly from me because they were scared of being associated with my views. They may have known my views beforehand and have never had any problem with them. But when it went public, such is the culture of fear and intimidation that they had to pretend otherwise.”

That hostility was writ large when MSPs were voting on whether they supported her becoming DFM. She had to sit in the chamber while other MSPs basically tore a strip off her. I ask her how she felt forced to listen to some of the critique without recourse.

“My mum and dad were in the in the gallery watching it all, and it’s not nice, being singled out. And, you know, a lot of people have focused on the fact that I was on the phone. I was actually looking at my phone for a couple of seconds. And then I thought no, it’s important to turn around and listen, and I listened to him [Ross Greer], was looking at him for most of it and what I defend more than anything else is freedom of speech.

Our work starts with not just listening as a passive exercise, but listening about what their priorities are and making them our priorities

“And he had a right to make his views known. And others have a right to rebut, or to respond to that, and I will defend with my dying breath his right and others’ rights to a frank exchange of views in our national debating theatre. But did I find it easy? No, of course I didn’t.”

“That’s done with, and my job right now is really clear. I’m not the leader of the party. I’m the deputy first minister. I’m there to support John Swinney and my brief is to deliver economic prosperity, and to support the workings of government and, of course, the most important part of my brief, to deliver a revolution in Gaelic. And that is my role, and I’m going to do it.

“I just think that in all of this, we still need to hold dear that our whole democracy is built on liberal values, and it’s the values of defending somebody you disagree with. And I personally think, and the polling shows, that there’s more people with me than going against me.

“There are two reasons why I’m in the SNP. One is because I believe in independence, and two, because it has always historically been a broad church. A broad church, excuse the pun, in terms of national representation, a broad church in terms of views, but also of sharing a goal of making Scotland the best place it can possibly be. And I, for as long as I am in this role, will defend the SNP as a broad church that has a place for everyone, including me.”

Forbes and I are talking in Kingussie in her constituency less than a week after a general election that saw her party decimated, losing 38 seats that they had won in the previous election and leaving a rump of just nine SNP MPs. I ask her what that tells her.

“I think that, speaking to voters, they wanted to send a message to the SNP. Many people who want Scotland to be independent, who want us to be able to achieve our aims, wanted to remind us of the importance of listening to them. And therefore I think our work starts with not just listening as a passive exercise, but listening about what their priorities are and making them our priorities.

“Most people want decent, well-paid jobs, they want a roof over their head, they want opportunities for their kids, they want to be able to get healthcare when they need it. Those are the priorities. It’s not that complicated. And that’s what we’ve got to deliver. And we’ve got 18 months or up to two years ahead of 2026 to deliver the changes that we really believe in.

“My support for independence is in order to make Scotland the wealthiest, most prosperous, fairest, most equal country that we could possibly be. And take a look at the areas that are most likely to make the biggest difference – they cut across reserved and devolved areas.

“So, let’s take energy. Energy is one of Scotland’s biggest opportunities and for decades we have talked about the lost revenues of oil and gas and now we’re facing a renewables revolution and the transformation of the green economy. There are huge opportunities for Scotland, but will we rue the lost opportunity in decades to come or will we celebrate the legacy?

“A lot of the levers to make this a success are within the UK Government and my fear, and I hope that I’ll be proven different, is that Labour have made much about Scotland in this election, they’ve made much about Scottish industry and Scottish oil and gas and energy. But will they deliver or not? That requires a massive upgrade to the grid. It requires a complete transformation of the energy market. It requires an ability to change – and you saw the chief exec of [renewable energy firm] Octopus, I’m sure, this week, who said that in time Scotland, if there was change, Scotland could actually be seeing free energy. That surely speaks to the inherent potential failure at the heart of what could be one of Scotland’s biggest opportunities.

“I had the privilege of joining the meeting that John Swinney had with the prime minister the weekend after the election and John Swinney was speaking very directly to him about my desire to work constructively with the UK Government, because people think I’m all about being ambitious or about my own career, when I’m all about doing stuff, getting stuff done. And if I can work collaboratively with the Labour UK government to get things done for Scotland, then brilliant. Let’s do it.”